Sox fans: What's a catcher worth to you?

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January 9, 2009

Sox fans: What's a catcher worth to you?

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Talks between Jason Varitek and the Red Sox remain ongoing, but if the two parties cannot agree on a deal for 2009, the Sox will likely have to bite the bullet and trade a prospect to ensure they have enough catching depth. The Sox have repeatedly stated that Clay Buchholz is not on the table, but Michael Bowden and Daniel Bard are.

So I ask you Red Sox Nation: Who would you be willing to give up to secure the likes of Jarrod Saltalmacchia, Taylor Teagraden or Miguel Montero?

UPDATE: Peter Gammons talked Sox at Boston.com today. He had this to say about this very topic we are dicussing (what are the odds!?):

"There's a difference between wish list and realistic wish list, but right now, they seem to be focused on Miguel Montero from Arizona, with Saltamacchia in Texas a possibility. Early in the fall, they tried to make a run at Russell Martin of the Dodgers and Mike Napoli of the Angels, but without success ... They can have Montero if they'll trade Michael Bowden but thus far the Red Sox have refused to trade him."

Clay Buchholz: We all know what Buccholz is capable of. Here's what one scout recently said after seeing him pitch in the Arizona Fall League:

"I think he's gained some of his swagger back. He lost some confidence during the year, but his velocity was back. He was throwing 91-95, and was free and easy. He had a dominant curveball and a plus change. He didn't need his slider. He looked focused on the mound. It looked to me like his arm slot was the same as it used to be, with a high three-quarters release, which adds to the depth of his breaking ball. This guy has three plus pitches and should be a front-of-the-rotation starter. His ceiling is very high."

And here's a look at the stats:

BUCHHOLZ CHART 3.JPG Michael Bowden - SoxProspects Scouting Report:

Bowden is a big righty starter with a top-of-the-rotation ceiling, presently projecting as a solid third starter at the major league level. He is an advanced pitcher for his age, but there's some room for improvement. He has an arsenal of three pitches that could be big-league caliber: a 90-93 mph four-seam fastball that tops out around 95 mph, a very good 12-6 hard breaking curve, and an excellent circle changeup with plus potential. His main pitch - the four-seamer - has a late, heavy sinking movement, and he generally keeps it down in the zone. Bowden can also work in a two-seamer that is a few mph off of his four-seamer, with a bit more movement. His deceptive changeup sits in the low 80s, about 10 mph off of his fastball, with action moving away from lefties. His mid-70s curve is pretty sharp and he keeps hitters at bay with it. However, he can telegraph his curve on occasion. Secondary stuff is really coming along in 2008. Overall, Bowden has an excellent command of the zone. One aspect that should come with more experience is improved pitchability against advanced hitters. His mechanics are somewhat unconventional in that his delivery is quite compact and he doesn't pull back with a lot of torque. Relies more on arm strength than leverage. But he's able to maintain consistent arm action throughout his outings, so the Sox haven't messed with it. Bowden is said to be a workaholic and just loves to pitch - another player who just lives and dies for baseball. Very athletic and competitive.

Daniel Bard - SoxProspects Scouting Report:

Live arm with a smooth delivery, although he needs to work on keeping a consistent release point. His fastball looks effortless, and consistently hits 97-98 with decent command but minimal movement. When he reaches back, he can apparently hit 101 mph on the gun. Two-seamer shows a bit more break and sits in the low-to-mid 90s. Secondary pitches are decent, but need a lot of refinement, including: (1) a high 80s cut fastball; (2) an 84 mph slider; and (3) a circle change with some downward movement. Previously Bard's breaking pitch was a high 70s slurve, but it was converted to a slider with more velocity in mid-2008. Needs some improvement on keeping all of his pitches down in the zone. Struggled through major control issues throughout the entire 2007 season, particularly with his slurve Has a strong frame and a mature demeanor, but has some confidence issues. Bard took well to a bullpen role in the Hawaii League in 2007, and was converted to a full time reliever in 2008. He changed his delivery by lowering his arm slot prior to the 2008 season, adding a little bit of life to his fastball.

And here are the stats for the three young catcherst he Red Sox seem most interested in:

So... Are you as hopefull about Buchholz as th Red Sox are, or would you swap him for Saltalamacchia? Would you be willing to sen Bard to the Rangers or D-Backs for a catcher? Maybe you'd prefer to hold onto all of these pitchers and try to re-sign Varitek? Or maybe you think Josh Bard, George Kottaras and/or Dusty Brown can get us through the 2009 season...

Bottom Line: Personally, I think we should make Varitek a reasonable offer and hold onto the kids. Wakefield and Smoltz are half way out the door, Penny still has a lot to prove and is here on a 1-year deal and Beckett, though they do have a 2010 option in place, is going to be looking for a serious raise when his contract is up...

Give us your plan in the comments section.

Tags: Arizona Diamondbacks, Boston Red Sox, Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, Dusty Brown, George Kottaras, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Jason Varitek, Josh Bard, Michael Bowden, Miguel Montero, Taylor Teagarden, Texas Rangers

Discussion

70 Comments on "Sox fans: What's a catcher worth to you?"

Posted by Shane, January 9, 2009 8:04 PM

I'd prefer them to bring back Tek and platoon him with Bard. But I acknowledge I'm completely sentimental about it, and a trade for a new young catcher needs to be made.

With Salty v. TGarden, do the James and CHONE predictions assume they'll be playing together for the Rangers or if they were put in a starting role? I assume the former.

Posted by Gerry, January 9, 2009 8:34 PM

Excellent information. Thank you. I agree on the value of our young pitchers, realistically projecting a 2010 - 2011 Rotation which could start Lester, Daisuke, Buchholz, Bowden, Tazawa, Wake. Too bad about Zinc. And a Pen with Bard, Masterson, Jones, RRamirez.

Are these Tx & Az catchers really worth it for 2009? Maybe not. Kottaras and Brown are both so close to the Show, on defense and offense. In terms of throwing out baserunners, the latest issue of Baseball America lists 55 prospects who had at least 50 attempts made against them in 2008. AA Mark Wagner ranked #10 with a 41.5% (34 of 61). AA/AAA Taylor Teagarden is #14 at 38.5% (25 of 65). Max Ramirez is 349 at 24.7% (19 of 77), ranked way down with the low-high A's, but below Luis Exposito at 28.5% ((37 of 130).

According to this report, TG is "by far the best defensive catcher of the three" from Texas, and Texas will build this position around TG, not Salty or Max, both of whom may wind up at other positions. Yes, Salty could develop, but when? Will he be so much better now than Bard? Or better now than Kottaras or Brown will be in 2010? So much so that he is worth Buchholz or Bowden? I don't see that.

I would be very happy with Tek's savvy and leadership (or Zaun's) & Bard's bat & D in 2008, as Kottaras, Brown or Wagner should be ready in a year, or sooner. We can wait as MiLB is, according to Baseball America, bottom heavy with top catching talent on the way up. Just like Boras misjudged the market for Manny, Tek, Teix, Lowe, etc., IMO Texas misjudged the market for its unproven catchers. Bard + Zinc for Salty. Oops.

Posted by RD in Methuen, January 9, 2009 8:37 PM

What ever it takes, get a new young catcher. You have to give up something to get something. We have plenty of pitching, sacrifice one or if need be two of the youngsters to get a Salty or Teagarden. We can't go into '09 with Bard and Tek.....PLEASE !!!

Posted by bottomlinesox, January 9, 2009 8:42 PM

Shane - Yes, I do think the projections assume a starting role, but I can't say for sure...

Gerry - That's some good info. I think most of us agree with teh Sox in that the price for the above catchers has remined too high, but the rumor is that the Sox are really pushing Bard right now after a great 2008.

Maybe they could trade from TG and re-sign Tek... but that might be an overload at the ML and AAA level.

Posted by Phillip, January 9, 2009 8:52 PM

I think the Sox will eventually bring back Tek for 2009 and possibly 2010, and I agree they should. If thats the case, then I don't think we should deal for any of the young catchers. Give Kottaras some playing time this year and see how it goes.

We've got too many question marks to start dealing our young pitching away. Will Ortiz rebound this year. Is Lowell going to be healthy. How will Bay be in a full season with us.

I think the signings of Smoltz, Penny, Baldelli, Kotsay, Bard were all perfect signings this year. One year deals, huge rewards if healthy and we didn't move any young guys. Let's get Tek back and call it an off-season.

Posted by Gerry in reply to comment from RD in Methuen, January 9, 2009 9:26 PM

That's the problem. We don't have a couple of young pitchers to give away. We have Buchholz, Bowden, Masterson, Bard, Tazawa. That's it. Masterson & Bard and maybe Tazawa appear aimed at the Pen. That leave Buchholz and Bowden as SP.

As BL states, Penny & Smoltz are one year contracts. Wake could last forever, or hang them up this year after a good time with fellow vet and neighbor Smoltzy.

Therefore, the 2010 Rotation, unless we go hunting for talent again, would have Beckett, Daisuke, Lester, Pauley, Hansack, though I think the latter two are out of options. TG is the best of the three available catchers from TX and AZ, and they plan to keep him. So, for our 2010 rotation we get someone a little more advanced than Kottaras & Brown (Montero or Salty).

I agree with Phillip, but can't agree with you on the value of Tek in 2009. Even James predicts an offensive uptick. Bard gives us a good deal of the offensive upgrade at C that we needed, and the good bats of Baldelli and Kotsay further enhance the offense.

With Smoltz, Penny, RRamirez, Littleton, etc., and the continuing development of Lester, Daisuke, DelCarmen, maybe Buchholz, Bowden, Bard, IMO we would be better off having vets like Tek, Zaun, Bard behind the plate in April.

Posted by Shdw, January 9, 2009 9:59 PM

"realistically projecting a 2010 - 2011 Rotation which could start Lester, Daisuke, Buchholz, Bowden, Tazawa, Wake."

Ridiculous. Wakefield will not be a viable starter in 2011. It's a miracle he's able to barely scrape by now.

Posted by Dan, January 9, 2009 10:01 PM

I worry about what kind of offense we'll get with Tek back but cannot fathom the willingness to give up so much (as I understand it, Texas is stuck on demanding two of our top pitching prospects) to get one of these young, might-be-great catchers.

And that was before I even considered the possibility that Beckett is gone after 2010. We cannot afford to give up Clay or Bowden; Masterson is too valuable for his established ability to start or relieve, and Bard may finally give us what Hansen was supposed to be.

My preference is Tek or Zaun with Bard OR someone that no one mentions - what would it take to get Benjie Molina from the Giants? Great defense and the only Molina who can hit. I'd package a lesser prospect with Bard to get that done, then see what you have with the AAA guys. But there's no reason to give up too much for what is out there and overpriced right now. You've done some internal planning for Tek's departure, either keep him, see what you've got internally, or find a veteran like Zaun.

Posted by Mickey, January 9, 2009 10:04 PM

I think that we need to get a catcher, but Buckholz rightly should be offlimits. I would trade Bowden and/or Bard if necessary, but don't think Montero or Salty are worth it. I would do it for Teagarden. What about Jesus Flores from the Nats? Good defense and power.

#10

Posted by Jimmy, January 9, 2009 10:08 PM

As the Rangers are insisting on Buchholz for Salty or Teagarden, it could be a case of Theo trying to wait it out until their valuation comes down. Bard is a viable back up plan to be our regular catcher and Kottaras could catch Wake. However, the Rangers still need pitching.

However, of the three Texas catchers Max Ramirez is the better option in my opinion. We could get him for Bard or Bowden (preferably the former) and he has the best power upside of the three. He's a good game caller and has a solid arm.

#11

Posted by bottomlinesox, January 9, 2009 10:15 PM

Dan - I've like Molina too, but a quick look at the Giants catching situation shows little depth. Maybe if the Sox packaged Dusty Brown or even Kottaras wit ha pitcher... but I don't see it happening - unfortunately.

Mickey - The Nats do have 3 catchers on the current roster, but Jesus is a career .250 hitter with a 10 HR max. I think I'd rather take my chances with the guys in our system... he is young though and could still blossom - I don't know much more than what the projects show me.

Good stuff guys!

#12

Posted by Ducksdeluxe, January 9, 2009 10:26 PM

Clay for Salty?
Done deal.This kid is like a deer in headlights.
To get a 23 year old switchhitting catcher is a no-brainer.
We have other pitchers to take over in 2010 plus trades and free agents.The hardest position to fill is catcher.

#13

Posted by MUNGHERO, January 9, 2009 10:29 PM

My Dream situation used to be to resign tek for a year or two if we could get him at a good price. (Ordway suggested 14 for two years.. which I still think is a little high) The theory being that We'd have him to start for this year, bard to back up and then hopefully get a stud to groom for the long term. Next year tek could be the back-up and continue the mentoring program and then we're good for a while.

I think this is a pipe dream. We're not getting Salty, we're definately not getting teagarden (Texas seems to like him best)and the interest in Montero is curious. As good as he is defensivly, he doesn't look like a long term solution to me based on his offensive numbers.

My preference is to arange to have tek finish his career with us, and have him train Bard to be the guy until Wagner, Exposito, Lavarnway or Weeden prove they're the heir.

FYI, You got linked by MLBTR. Congrats.

#14

Posted by Keithbythebay, January 9, 2009 10:32 PM

I think the Mariners have a few kids that the Sox should look at, Jeff Clement and Rob johnson? What about a deal with them?

#15

Posted by qudjy1, January 9, 2009 10:36 PM

Montero is more of an offensive catcher as well. He had a rough start last year with a broken pinky finger, and didnt get alot of ABS. Its isnt the Offense that is the concern, moreso the defense.

#16

Posted by Soxfans77, January 9, 2009 10:37 PM

I have something for consideration... Since the Red Sox lost on on Mark Texieria, they still need a big bat in their lineup, right? They also need a front line catcher. Is anyone with me that it would be foolish to trade our top of the rotation starter prospects for a "prospect" catcher that may or may not ever be the type of catcher we are looking for? Why not put together a package including Clay Bucholz as the center piece and either Daniel Bard or Michael Bowden plus a couple future draft picks to the Twins for Joe Mauer? He would provide some pop in the lineup the Sox desperately need since our former loser, oops, I mean left fielder so gracefully made his exit from New England. He would also give us youth, and a steady gold glove caliber catcher. He is also already proven as a ML Catcher. This would give us time to develop a catcher in our system, give the Sox the flexibility to offer Varitek a low cost, low risk deal for something like 2 mil a year. He could finish his career in Boston, help to tutor the younger catchers on the Boston pitching staff and give the Red Sox back Varitek's leadership skills. Having 2 phenomenol catchers major league ready. Hmm, is this such a bad thing? The Twins would end up doing pretty well with almost ready major league pitchers that they have had their eye on for quite some time, and gain additional draft choices courtesy of Boston to address some of their own internal needs. I think this is a win win. Paying attention Theo?

#17

Posted by john Rodrigues, January 9, 2009 10:44 PM

I agree, I think they should hold onto their prospects. they've had enormous success with the farm system. This is crucial, because you dont have to go elsewhere for talent and number two you dont have to deplete your own team to get what you need. We need a catcher I like Salty, but giving away pitching is a mistake. Beckett is a yr or so away from free agency. wakefield is old, Dice is a 3. I like the stop gap mentality by giving 5 mil laden with incentives to old proven winners. Hey even colon gave us 4 or so wins for a mil+ do the math not bad. Look we gave away Arroyo (he pitched a no-hitter) we gave away Gabbard he pitched well in Texas (plus the outfielder). I think with the rich farm system, you cultivate, promote, and season, and stop gap with a free agent piece you need.

#18

Posted by matt, January 9, 2009 10:49 PM

SOXFANS77
you can't trade draft picks in baseball!!!

#19

Posted by josh, January 9, 2009 10:50 PM

twinkies hang up the phone to that proposal. would take a similar deal to what we proposed for hanley to get mauer.

#20

Posted by Erin, January 9, 2009 10:51 PM

I agree with Soxfans77. Joe Mauer is an awesome catcher, and could provide us with a long term catching solution. He will of course come at a price, but if you are looking to trade away top prospects, do it for a name that will make a splash. Do it for Mauer!

#21

Posted by Kevin Foley, January 9, 2009 10:51 PM

Catcher is the hardest position to fill with a someone great. But it is so hard to judge prospects sometimes. But still, pitcher is easy to fill since there are so many. I say we trade Clay. We could still have a 2010 rotation on Beckett, Lester, Dice-K, Masterson, Bowden, Hagadone. Not to mention maybe Penny or Tazawa.

When/if Beckett leaves will we probably sign another Ace. Next off season you are looking at some good pitchers. Harden, Webb, Lackey, Lee, Duchsherer, Escobar, Bedard. Whereas there isn't much for catchers.

#22

Posted by Soxfans77, January 9, 2009 10:54 PM

Posted by matt, January 9, 2009 10:49 PM

SOXFANS77
you can't trade draft picks in baseball!!!

Sorry about that. "Players to be named later"

#23

Posted by Matt, January 9, 2009 10:57 PM

You can't something for nothing.
If you want a young catcher which are rare you have to give uup a quality pitching prospect (Bowden / Buckholtz)
After 2007 Bowden did not have much value, time to cash in.
Buckholtz had tons more value in 2007 and I am worried about his confidence so I would get something while I could for him.
I am not saying trade both, just 1 of them.

Bard has little value -
He failed as a starter.
He is a minor league reliver only right now, how many quality reliver prospects that never pitched with sucess as a starter are there that you would want to trade for from other teams?
He has as much value as Craig Hansen did last year when they traded him. You are ot getting a good young catching one for one with him.

Face it if you want someone young and good and you won't trade Masterson that you better offer up Bowden or Buckholtz or no deal is going to happen.
Even if the Sox have one of the better systems you can't ask for another teams top C prospect and tell them they can have your 6th best pitching prospect and the other 5 are off-limits!

Lastly: Gammons might be a deserving hall of famer but has become a Sox blowhard more and more as he ages. I respect him and will always read his cloumns but never put too much stock in what he reports anymore.

#24

Posted by Nick, January 9, 2009 11:10 PM

I think that having a young, talented catcher is a huge luxury, but having the capacity to build your rotation year in and year out with young, homegrown talent is almost a necessity. Look at the risk an expense a free agent stud costs. Last year our offense suffered, in part, because Jason Varitek was anemic, but our starting pitching depth gave us the ability to rest our horses and make a stunning run given our circumstances (injuries, ineffectiveness, Manny). Even with Tek/Bard/Zaun behind the dish, if the pitchers can get it done and we have the depth to give them rest, we can certainly compete in this division.

However, it's easy to become attached to unproven (at the ML level) talent, so with that, if Bard and a low level/high ceiling guy could pull a Montero or a Salty, we still have an X-factor in Hagadone.

#25

Posted by Steve in Burlington, January 9, 2009 11:16 PM

I recommend parting with all 3 ptiching prospects and even a mid-quality fielding prospect. But I don't recommend any of the catchers suggested at all. I'd be going after Brian McCann of the Braves and would pay just about anything and everything they demand to move him. He's young, has power, hits for average, scores runs on base and at bat, he can throw out runners and his fielding percentage is decent. He's an all-star potential Joe Maurer who could firmly set us behind the plate for the foreseeable future, while adding a high-quality stick to the line-up. I wish the Sox and the fan-base would drop chasing these three guys. They all strike out way too often and do not have the power stick to make a difference in our line up. What's more, only Montero has the defensive skills commensurate with the Sox' level of play.

#26

Posted by VMCollier, January 9, 2009 11:22 PM

I disagree w/ Soxfans77. First of all in MLB you can't trade draft picks, draft position or a drafted player until one full year has passed since he was taken. So you need to come up with more firepower for the deal.

Secondly, Mauer is free agent in 2011, this both helps and hurts. The Twins have already indicated that signing Mauer to a LT Deal is their top priority; with 2 years to go to free agency they may get a discount because 1) they are paying out upfront in cost control years to buy out a couple of years of free agency and, 2) Mauer is from St.Paul.

The Twins have no reason to move him... they would have to be blown away. To me if I am the Twins the Sox would have to offer the top 5 of the entire farm to get him. Heck last year they demanded Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholz for Santana and they had every reason to trade Santana.

So assuming we did blow them away we would then have 2 years to sign him... but we don't have hometown leverage, only cash. If he pulls a Teixeira (remember Jorge Posada's contract is up in 2011) then we gave up the farm for only 2 years of service.

I say we wait patiently for the economics of this recession to take hold and trade for Chris Iannetta… http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3767323&name=gammons_peter

#27

Posted by Terry, January 9, 2009 11:31 PM

Our beloved Sox have no catcher. Saying they should hold onto the arms because we have guys getting old is the same argument you could make about the catchers (if Tek comes back). They are one of the few teams that free agent pitchers would flock to. Get a young catcher now! I am not sure how little we can give up to get a Salty or Teargarden, but get one soon. Salty had a better than expected winter and could be about to emerge as a hitter. He loves Boston and would fit in well. Teargarden is the better defender right now but Salty has the best potential.

#28

Posted by Charlie, January 9, 2009 11:51 PM

I think if Bowden hits his ceiling he becomes a solid #3 starter like a Joe Blanton. While that would be a great personal accomplishment, there are always #3 starters to be acquired and the sox can afford them. He may represent a "sell high" situation like Coco. We all love Coco, but backup outfielders are obtainable for the red sox. Keep Bard and Bucholz, their potential is very high. The red sox want elite players, not just solid ones. That's why you trade Gabbard, Moss, Murphy....and Bowden.

#29

Posted by bottomlinesox, January 9, 2009 11:59 PM

Wow! Lots of good stuff guys...

I'll make a few quick points, but your commenst have prompted me to write a on possible trade candidates beyond the kids we talked about above.

1. The Twins have a great prospect in Jose Morales (.315 at AAA in '08), so they're prepared to lose Mauer to free agency... If Mauer (from Minn.) choses to avoid a Teixeira Sweepstakes type situation, he could re-sign with Minn - making Morales tradeable...

2. Trading for McCann would be great, but even if the Braves need pitching, they can't just trade away their starting catcher... as many of you have mentioned: good catchers are rare, you don;t just trade them for prospects.

Thanks for reading! More to come...

Rob

#30

Posted by Gerry in reply to comment from Shdw, January 10, 2009 12:17 AM

Read my post again before you use the word ridiculous. I have Wake as 6th man. Knucklers can pitch to near 50. Wake is a knuckler. He MAY be gone by then. He may be on the roster. Sorry that's all you got out of the entire post.

#31

Posted by hrstrat57, January 10, 2009 12:50 AM

I only trade Buchholz in a deal for Hanley Ramirez....too much upside IMHO.

#32

Posted by SoxBrainTrust, January 10, 2009 1:29 AM

Trade Bowden and Bard and some lesser player(s) to Milwaukee for Prince Fielder and catching prospect Angel Salome who may not even be their top system catcher as they are deep compared to most teams.

#33

Posted by Cliff, January 10, 2009 2:00 AM

Any chances of a SF Buster Posey trade or the other guy Pablo Sandoval which is a catcher converting to 3rd. SF needs pitching in the bullpen bad.

#34

Posted by Dana, January 10, 2009 2:15 AM

Quality starting pitching costs a fortune now. Also, we get 2 good picks if Veritek signs elsewhere. If the Sox don't sign him I don't think he gets signed at any price ( hard to believe isn't it ). Dusty Brown hit .295 last year with pretty good power numbers and he is strong defensively. His minor league stats are about where Kelly Shopppach was and now a lot of people want to trade Bowden for him! The Sox have a budget in comparison to the Yankees. Boston management is brilliant compared to almost any other front office ( IMHO ). Save the cash by waiting for Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Buckholz and Bard. Restock the farm by getting more draft picks when they let guys like Veritek go. In the post steroid era all the sudden these young guys are studs again. Sign free agents only when a Mauer or Pujols type player or someone they really need becomes available. This is a long term plan which will pay off for them if the fans have some patience to let them work the plan. Have faith RSN!

#35

Posted by Dana, January 10, 2009 2:29 AM

Maybe it's just me but my sense is that Buckholz, Bowden and Anderson are almost can't miss prospects. This isn't wishfull thinking. The data and the intangibles appear to indicate that these guys are potential stars. Anderson got into Berkeley and listen to his interviews ( he's intelligent and focused ). Bowden is supposed to be an animal on the mound, a real tiger. Buckholz's stuff is off the charts good. People are saying he has Santana potential. Each one of these guys is a ROY candidate. Bowden may end up being the best of the 3 just on pure work ethic and guts. I think these guys are the real deal. I say we make do this year with Dusty Brown and Bard let it ride. See what happens next year. Save the cash to maybe pick up a bargain next July if needed. I like what the Sox have done. Teixiera was a great person to add but he would have cost a fortune also. If we had signed Johan Santana last year where would we have been for the next 4 years ( probably worse off especially when the money was factored in in terms of player replacement value ). Theo is the king. He continues to get my vote. I have a kid at Harvard and I can tell you the pedigree does help. He's factoring things most of us never even think of. Also, he has a consistent dedication to excellence. That's the Ivy league difference. John Farrell is a definite asset to the franchise also as is Francona for his deft personnel management ( who saw that coming exxcept Theo ). We are fortunate to have the entire Boston braintrust. Look at what these guys have done in their careers. Henry was absolutely brilliant in the stock market. Tom Werner did the Cosby show and that worked out quite well didn't it. These guys are the real deal. Things are going to work out. I like our chances!

#36

Posted by Love them Sox, January 10, 2009 2:32 AM

The Twins have already stated they won't trade Mauer. The Minnesota residents will tear down the new stadium they just paid for with taxpayer money if they trade the face of the franchise. The Twins have also mentioned they are willing to let Cuddyer and a few others go after this season to clear payroll for resigning Mauer.

Teagarden, Salty, and Montero are not worth the upside of Bucholz, Bowden or Bard. Maybe we can resign and trade Heathcliff again. Worked the last time :) I agree with SoxBrainTrust, and would rather see them be used in acquiring a power hitting corner infielder. Then, you can afford to hide Teks bat at the bottom of the lineup.

#37

Posted by smitty, January 10, 2009 2:59 AM

I just want to say great site. The people here know their stuff.

I was just on the CBSSportsline blog and now I have a splittin headache.

Keep up the good work

#38

Posted by soxfans87, January 10, 2009 3:30 AM

Here is my idea. Keep all the prospects. Give Bard the starting catching job and sign Zaun to platoon. They both work pretty well with rotation and Bards bat is underrated. A great signing there for the Red Sox. You then resign Beckett before his contract is even close to getting up. Clutch pitchers like that come around once every twenty years. Yo play out the season and You would go into 2010 with a rotation of Beckett, Matzusaka, Lester, Bucholz, and Masterson/Bowden/Tazawa. You then sign another free agent catcher like b. Molina or keep Bard for another year. Make the position like SS is for the Red Sox (lets hope Lowry stops that trend.) You keep the pitching and then try to get the Marlins to rethink the whole Hanley thing a year later and a contract expiring sooner.

#39

Posted by Charlie, January 10, 2009 3:58 AM

Buckholz, Lowry, Veritek. These names are on their shirts half the time. Pick it up on the spelling sox fans, we're better than that.

#40

Posted by Vintage Nomar, January 10, 2009 4:00 AM

I'm surprised I haven't heard anybody mention the name Matt Weiters. This kid is the definition of can't miss prospect. He was the Orioles #1 pick in 2007. He has nasty nasty stuff. Apparently going to be the face of the franchise. Check out his stats. Anyway, What do you think it would take to acquire this kid? Would you give up a Bucholz, Bowden/Bard, Kottaras for him? would Baltimore? Is that too much? Too little? Supposedly this kid is the next Mauer. He will step up to the show this season.

#41

Posted by Thomas, January 10, 2009 4:13 AM

I think the Sox should continue in the following fashion:
A.) Try and sign Tek to a team friendly deal. The market for him is slim and the Sox will most likely have a chance to match any deal he is finally offered in the coming weeks.
B.) Continue to consider looking into the signing of Greg Zaun as a fall back. I would feel fine starting '09 with a Zaun/Bard/Kotteras/Brown/Wagner depth chart and see what kind of production is offered by that group through June 1. By production I don't just mean offensive stats, but more importantly the handling of the pitching staff as well.
C.) Look into a creative deal & not just a straight pitching prospect for catching prospect deal. The Sox, like all teams, will always be reluctant to deal their top 2 or 3 pitching prospects & rightfully so. But Theo & Co. might not have any qualms in packaging prospects that are a little further away but still hold value. If they could take one of their athletic young OF prospects(Kalish/Reddick/Lin) along with a young arm like Felix Doubrant or Kris Johnson AND one of their own catching prospects like Brown/Wagner, would a team like Clev. w/Shoppach, Tex w/Salty or AZ w/ Montero not be interested in that type of swap?? If I am a small market team I have to like getting a Sox top 10 prospect, Top 20 prospect, and a young catcher to sustain positional depth while dealing from a position that they in turn have depth at already.

#42

Posted by Dante, January 10, 2009 4:31 AM

I am against trading Buchholz or Bowden for a catcher, unless it was as part of a bigger deal that landed the Sox a Mauer, Martin or McCann.

Obviously catcher is a very important position defensively, but you dont NEED a stud offensive catcher in order to win a championship...plenty of great teams have had weak-hitting hitters who handle a staff well and play good defense.

Id be very hesitant to trade Buchholz or Bowden. Its very hard to find front line starting pitching, and both of these kids have a chance to be special...

unless the sox can get a real, surefire impact catcher, id hold on to Buchholz and Bowden...

#43

Posted by Matt, January 10, 2009 4:34 AM

I thought Sox fans were supposed to be educated? Just because they are the red sox does not mean that they can trade for Mauer and McCann just because they have prospects and a need.

I think eventually the rangers will make a trade of Salty and another minor leaguer for Bucholtz. Mark it down.

#44

Posted by Boston Sports Buzz, January 10, 2009 5:25 AM

Great info, Rob. Like your reasoning on the catching situation, too. I don't see a scenario playing out where Tek isn't the Sox top catcher for the next year (probably two). I would still like to see them land their catcher of the future, but as you say, holding on to the young'ns is a good idea, as well. At the least, they could revisit the trade market last year after guys like Buchholz, Bowden and Bard up their trade value a bit.

#45

Posted by Dante, January 10, 2009 5:44 AM

Matt,

Not sure if that zing was directed in my direction, but for the record i dont see a trade involving Mauer, Martin or McCann either

I just said if youre going to trade a marquee pitching prospect like Buchholz or Bowden, I would want a marquee catching talent in return in a larger deal...

I like Saltalamacchia and I know he's highly regarded, but his defense is average at best, and I like defense-first catchers, rather than offensive ones...

Id prob do Bowden for Salty, but not Buchholz.

#46

Posted by Hunto, January 10, 2009 5:47 AM

Right now, honestly, I don't think any one of those catchers is worth the pitching prospects. Not a single one of them.

Theo's got options for catcher this season. There's Bard, Varitek is handcuffed and of course, there's Zaun out there for a platoon deal. Either way, he can figure it out.

Personally, I'd rather use the pitching prospects to upgrade the short stop position. I think the talent depth there is far greater than what you're going to find at Catcher, plus its less of an injury risk. Maybe they look at Ramirez. Maybe Tulowitski. Who knows. Either way, upgrade, upgrade.

From there, I'm looking at dealing Lowrie as a starting shortstop to a place like Texas, who with an aging Michael Young, might be in the market. Then of course there's utility pieces, maybe one of our bullpen arms, who knows. I'd rather them put something together that way.

#47

Posted by kbin007, January 10, 2009 5:52 AM

I'd rather sign Tek to a 2 year deal and use him with Bard for the next couple of seasons. We do have an up and coming offensive catcher in our farm system in Luis Exposito. He hit well in 2 class A stops last year: .293AVG, 21HRs, 68RBI and a .838OPS. I'd like to see what he will do next year in high A/AA and judge if we need a young catcher then.

#48

Posted by Ethan, January 10, 2009 6:22 AM

Let's not forget that Mauer is a free agent after the 2010 season. I know that's a long way away, but a few of the reports surrounding him suggest the Red Sox are "salivating" over him already, and are prepared to make him the highest paid catcher of all time. I think they should resign Varitek for 2 years and sign Mauer.

#49

Posted by Matt Kelley, January 10, 2009 6:25 AM

I am very impressed with the knowledge and foresight of the Red Sox fans on this site. Liek someone earlier said, CBSsportsline can give you a headache because of all the idiots that post there.

Good young catcher are rare these days. I would bring back Tek for two years at $5 million, $7 million tops (Boras screwed him, overvaluing his worth.

Trade Bard or Masterson and another minor leaguer, like Hagadone and pick up either Teagarden or Saltalamacchia. Like everyone else, I think the Rangers will hang on to Teagarden. Salty has great promise as a hitter.

If this option doesn't work, I would make a similar offer to the Giants for Buster Posey, who will be a Joe Mauer like star, with more power.

#50

Posted by Dante in reply to comment from Charlie, January 10, 2009 7:00 AM

I think you are selling Michael Bowden very short in saying his ceiling is Joe Blanton..

He may not be a future ace, but I think it would be considered a slight disappointment if he ends up like Joe Blanton...

he def has better stuff than Blanton

#51

Posted by kbin007, January 10, 2009 7:02 AM

@ Vintage Nomar... No way the O's trade Wieters. I don't even think they'd listen to any type of offers for him. He is, as you said, going to be the face of their franchise. Most fans on this thread know this, and this is probably why his name has not been mentioned.

#52

Posted by Shdw in reply to comment from Gerry, January 10, 2009 7:22 AM

Even as a #6 Wakefield will most likely not be playing. He's been in decline for years and frankly, I'm surprised he hasn't retired already. But then again, the Red Sox do seem to have a thing for over the hill pitchers.

#53

Posted by CLANCY, January 10, 2009 12:01 PM

I agree with keeping the kids. Make tek a reasonable two year offer, perhaps similiar to Wakefields. My concern is that the Sox and Boras are not getting along right now which hurts the relationship with Tek.

#54

Posted by Tom, January 10, 2009 1:22 PM

I don't see the Sox giving up one of their top tier pitching prospects for any of the aforementioned players. Why? Because Mauer is available in 2011. If you thought that the Sox salivated over Texiera...Wait until Mauer hits the market!

#55

Posted by Bob, January 10, 2009 1:24 PM

Buster Posey is an excellent suggestion, here is how I would do it, Manny DelCarmen, and a outfielder in the minors. They are looking for this help. Posey was awesome at FSU. GREAT suggestion.

#56

Posted by Tom in reply to comment from Dana, January 10, 2009 1:31 PM

Have you seen Bowden pitch? I have seen him three times live. The guy is a bulldog but his mechanics lead me to think that he will end up with arm trouble. Think Wade Miller--all arm, no lower body, very violent torque on the shoulder in the follow through. From Soxprospects.com:

"His mechanics are somewhat unconventional in that his delivery is quite compact and he doesn't pull back with a lot of torque. Relies more on arm strength than leverage. But he's able to maintain consistent arm action throughout his outings, so the Sox haven't messed with it."

I am not saying he is sure to break down, but if I was a betting man...

#57

Posted by Jim, January 10, 2009 3:43 PM

Trading any pitching prospects for a catching prospect is foolish,because when it comes down to it you are really only trading w/ potential, the same potential you already have w/Kotteras,Wagner,etc... so give Tek a 2 yr. deal w/ vested option, what better tutor could you find for a young catcher than tek.
Now, if you want to talk about trading potential for proven talent and looking to the future than do the Hanley deal

#58

Posted by Wayne Provost, January 10, 2009 3:51 PM

Think about it...Bard's to good to be a minor leaguer and he proved three years ago he couldn't catch Wakefields knucleball, a requirement for Bostons' backup catcher. Is it possible the Red Sox brought in Bard to be the starter and decided not to re-sign Varitek? And could this be related to the ill will the Sox have developed for Bor-Ass? If they can't trade for a young catcher you can always sign the Zahns' and Fasanos' of the world...

#59

Posted by GT in reply to comment from Erin, January 10, 2009 4:17 PM

Be patient here. Mauer is a free agent next year and the Twins will not pay him. At most we give up some picks to get him from the Twins and then pay him.

We do not have to give up the farm to get him now, lets find a stop gap for one year and then pay the man.

Would love to sign Tek to a one year contract but doubt that will happen. Probably will take 2 but that is ok. Mauer enjoys a few days off and having a veteran leader like Tek to spell him would be fine by me.

If not Tek then pick up Zaun on a one year contract and go with him and Bard until Mauer is there for us to pick.

Same with the OF, go at it this year, next year there are some nice cherries to pick too. How about Holliday in the OF? I like the one year contracts this year so far. Gives the farm system time to mature and allows money to be saved for next year where needed.

#60

Posted by Jim, January 10, 2009 5:39 PM

Are the Sox going to be outbid for Mauer's services by the Bankee's again,I say keep Tek 2-3 yrs. groom your own.Mauer's offense is nice but as we have seen the best catcher w/hit around .270, 15hr 60-70 rbi w/ handle the staff,call a good game,and play decent defense get your power from the corner's,speed and defense up the middle that is a championship recipe!

#61

Posted by Jim in reply to comment from GT, January 10, 2009 5:43 PM

Check Holliday's stats away from Coor's you will find we already have that player in Bay.

#62

Posted by SOXFAN87, January 11, 2009 3:37 AM

Last I checked varitek had no E after the v but who knows could be wrong Charlie but pretty sure redsox.com is not. I also agree with JIM that a catcher that calls a good game is more important for this team then anything. I think resigning Varitek or getting someone else in like Zaun (who has worked with some good staffs also) is important. That is what this staff needs. Do you also honestly think that Tek will hit .220 again? I think he is proud of a player to let that happen again and is also a .268 career hitter. He is the best catcher in calling a game in baseball by far and you cannot take that or the four no-hitters that he caught for granted. If you really need to go after a young hitter go after Shoppach who has actually done something in the show. I would offer Daniel Bard and maybe Ryan Kalish for him. But also expect that the pitching staff will not be as good as it was with Tek. Use the end of 2006 as an example. The pitching staff imploded after Tek got hurt.

#63

Posted by SOXFAN87, January 11, 2009 3:48 AM

Hey Charlie last time I checked Varitek did not have e after the V. I could just be wrong but you should know better than that.

I still think my plan that I said above was good but I have been thinking about it and think that we should sign Varitek for 2 years for two reasons. The first being that I honestly do not think that a career .268 will hit .220 again. He is to proud of an individual to let himself perform like he did last season. The second reason and the much more important reason is that he is the best catcher at calling a game by FAR in the big leagues. He has caught FOUR no hitters and let us not forget about how horrible the pitching staff was after he got hurt in '06. He is in invaluable in that record.

If I was to do anything and I do not think I would I would get back Shoppach. He is relatively young (28 or 29) and has a decent amount of experience. More then all the other prospects you are talking about. He was also Red Sox prospect and knows what it takes to be member of this team. I think it would also take probably take Daniel Bard (closer material?) and Ryan Kalish to do it.

#64

Posted by Fred, January 11, 2009 6:29 AM

Am I the only one that sees potential in Bard? A big kid at 6-4 with a live arm that just transitioned well to the pen. Not saying he'll be Papelbon, but he could pan out to be a great set up man. People are putting to much regard to some of these prospects. Not every guy labeled as destined turns out to be an all star. I just don't see Buchholtz or Bowden being anything more than number 3's. Some gusys like Clay have the major league stuff but just don't have the make uo to be successful. Also, lets get real, will Tazawa really be that good? Penciling him in as a number 4 started in 2010 is bold. Either pull the trigger on Buchholtz for TG or Salty. Otherwise, resign Tek for 1-2 and make it work as best as possible.

#65

Posted by RunningRed, January 11, 2009 5:13 PM

Preferably bring back Tek or sign Ivan Rodriguez for one year with a club option. Keep the young arms and work hard to develop Bard, Kottaras and Brown. We stole Tek back in the day and we all realize that catchers of his caliber are hard to come by but pitching wins world series. Who caught for the Phillies last year?

#66

Posted by Jim, January 12, 2009 12:35 AM

That would be Carlos Ruiz the Phil's backstop hit .375 in the Series(runningred),and Irod league wide is considered one of the worst signal callers (Q.B. reference). he is flashy defensively and has had some pop but has never really worked at the part of his game.
Zaun has interested me since I saw him in the Hall of Fame game in the spring of "05" against the Sox,he called his shot(Ruthian) and had a blast w/ the fan's.

#67

Posted by Gerry, January 13, 2009 2:32 AM

With Shoppach re-signed, Zaun about to sign with the O's, I-Rod not a good fit at all, our options are dwindling. It's Tek/Bard if we are lucky. It's Bard & Salty/TG/Montero maybe. I would be happy with Bard & Kottaras/Brown who are both underated by everyone but the Scouts and Pawtucket coaches, are good defenders, with power bats, and have caught most of the Red Sox rotation and pen, including Wake & Zinc.

Speaking of underrated, doesn't that describe Josh Bard? He's not the same guy that left Boston in early 2006. Three years later he has establlished himself as a fine game caller and defender catching a roster with Jake Peavey. He also established himself as a far-above-average hitter at pitchers' park Petco. Ignore his 2008 #'s while playing injured. Look at 2006 and 2007, when healthy. It's entirely possible that Bard/Kottaaras and Brown could be better defenders than Salty, TG, Montero, AND hit .280/25/75 from the 8 hole.

Reality is, all these choices would work just fine.

#68

Posted by Greg, January 13, 2009 3:41 AM

I have seen Salty in person down here in Myrtle Beach and that kid will be a STUD when he finally makes it to the majors. The Sox definately need to look at this kid and consider trading either Bowden or Buckholtz and maybe one of their other top prospects for him. He would make a absolute great addition behind the plate for years to come for us.

#69

Posted by Chet Wheeler, January 13, 2009 2:38 PM

I don't understand why everyone thinks Kelly Shoppach is off the trade market because he "re-signed" with Cleveland. He just signed a one-year deal to stay out of arbitration and is still under club control until 2011. He's got good power and a good arm. Last year when Victor Martinez went down Shoppach filled in admirably, batting .261 with 21 HR/55 RBI/.348 OBP/.517 SLG. in only 112 games. He does strike out quite a bit but brings much power, has a great arm and has proven he can hit MLB pitching.

Why no Shoppach love?

#70

Posted by Chet Wheeler, January 13, 2009 2:52 PM

Here's a chunk of text from the Indians' website concerning Shoppach's signing:

"Shoppach's 21 homers were third among all Major League catchers, and his 14 second-half homers were tied for sixth among all American Leaguers. He was fourth in the AL in RBIs at catcher despite having at least 100 fewer at-bats than his top three competitors. He's obviously not your average backup, but he isn't uttering any "play me or trade me" demands just yet."

He's a team guy, and if the Indians didn't have Victor Martinez as their current catcher and Carlos Santana in AA/AAA they'd be looking at him as their starter. He's someone they value greatly, but don't NEED. But they won't just give him away. My guess is that Mark Shapiro and Theo Epstein have already had the discussion and it involves the Tribe not giving up Shoppach for less than Buchholz and the Sox not giving up Buchholz for a catcher -- end of discussion.

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